This is in response to the following blog posting:
The Lord's Prayer vs. God Bless America
For this post to make sense you need to read that other post and it's associated comments.
Bear with me till the end.
The young man who died was not killed by illegal guns, he was killed by people.
People kill people, not guns. This is not just some pro gun rhetoric (at least for and from me) but a real point. The problem is people and that there are people who want to do harm to others. As long as we keep blaming external things for internal problems, these real and serious problems will never be addressed.
I don't see why the gun shop is involved at all since I've seen nothing to connect it with the death of Papito except its being three blocks away.
The organization "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" is not about stopping illegal gun violence but about banning guns.
They are not an honest organization (e.g. they have lied about how many mayors are involved and did not remove the names of mayors who chose to no longer be members). They are not a nuetral party that can be trusted.
The "Code of Conduct" looks interesting. Because it is associated with MAIG it is immediately suspect but since even a blind pig can stumble across an acorn the Code should be looked at on just its merits.
It looks like it is basically proposing two things. First, it proposes that gun shops follow existing laws. Second, it proposes that the gun shop engage in voluntary gun registration.
"Everything on that list is pretty much already what every FFL does. We never transfer a gun without that background check result. To do so is to invite the ATF up in your ass." (a quote from a gun dealer I checked with) Unless you want to go to jail you follow the law. and gun shops want to stay in business so they do even if they disagree with the laws. The laws are the requirements to do business. Guns are expensive so the idea that gun shops are lax in their security and are letting guns walk out the door is simply not a real situation.
So the first part of the Code is about doing things a gun shop already does.
With respect to the gun registration part there are three things that come to mind. First, there are some things that look like they are good that could come from gun registration. You might be able to track down the "straw purchasers" and that definitely seems good. However, I'll bet you that the gun that killed Papito was not bought through a straw purchase but was stolen. Such a vast Majority of the guns used in crimes are stolen that would go so far as to say that they are nearly ALL stolen.
Second, advocates of the second amendment are understandably distrustful of the government knowing they have a gun. Look at what happened in New Orleans with the gun confiscation? At a time when folks needed to be able to care for themselves the most, the government took away their means of self defense.
Third and finally, this ad hoc gun registration would be a significant financial burden for each gun shop.
So with respect to the gun registration aspect of the Code, it is asking guns shops to do something that has little bearing on actually reducing crime, it is an action that the gun shop will not agree with, and it will cost them money to do it.
So you have document that implies you are not doing certain things that you actually are doing (out of both common sense and to comply with existing laws), asks you to start doing something you believe is actually wrong, not useful, and expensive, and is delivered in a context that implies you are a bad guy if you don't sign it AND that you are somehow culpable for the tragic death that happened to take place close to your location.
Can we see why folks who are serious about the second amendment would take umbrage to this? The Code, in and of itself but particularly in this context, is insulting. Now we are proposing that the code is blessed by God?
The organization that is putting out the Code of Conduct is found at the following website:
www.heedinggodscall.org
Heeding God's Call.
Apparently God wants to implement this Code of Conduct.
Shane Claiborne made this a political issue and then runs behind a weak pacifist misinterpretation of Jesus. He writes in his article, Beauty and Ugliness in a Shooting’s Aftermath:
"When we look at Jesus’ cross we see what love looks like when it stares evil in the face. It is non-violent, it is forgiving, it is steady and courageous."
Jesus was NOT forgiving of evil. (". . .White washed tombstones with the stench of death inside. . .")
Jesus used violence
John 2:15
http://bible.cc/john/2-15.htm
Jesus didn't clear the temple with strong language.
Jesus' disciples carried weapons
John 18:10
http://bible.cc/john/18-10.htm
Jesus calls us to be armed and prepared
Luke 22:36
http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm
Jesus knew the disciples had weapons and was ok with it.
Luke 22:38
http://bible.cc/luke/22-38.htm
It seems that Mr. Claiborne's position is at best on shaky ground.
I hope you're still with me.
Regardless of where folks fall on the political spectrum, some of them can tolerate conflicting opinions and some cannot. Ideally a person encounters a conflicting view and assesses whether the author of the view is capable of having a dialogue or if he is just a goofball to be ignored.
Instead the gun shop folks got angry with Mr. Claiborne using the death of Papito to push an anti-gun political agenda and decided to express it. If I had been able to talk to them I would have said, "Let the dude in the goofy hat do his thing. He either is an unwitting pawn of MAIG or he knows what he is doing and would like the publicity."
practicingresurrection said:
'You can hear Shane say "There is no us and them on this"' (In the video)
When he made it political like that, when he introduced the Code, he created "us" and "them."
After looking into this a bit I do not agree that this is a case of one "side" with the Lord's Prayer and the other with God Bless America.
You have Mr. Claiborne agitating for pretty specific actions that are highly debatable and then masking it in Jesus' cloak.
The gun shop people weren't calloused, they were ANGRY. Why were they angry? That would be a good question to ask them but I'll bet you it wasn't because people were mourning the death of Papito.
The "God Bless America" song was rude but Mr. Claiborne created that situation.
I suspect the reason Mamasong posted this story was to illustrate the disturbing amalgamation of Christianity and Nationalism. This is an important discussion to have and there is no place in scripture where God tells us to love the USA. However, in light of what I see and have said above, I do not see this being a good example of it. Really it is all about guns and those who want American citizens to not have them.
K
22 comments:
K
Hey there, I'm gonna jump in here as R and the kids are down in Ashland for the next week and she won't be online til she's back.
This video/prayer vigil was about trying to bring God's kingdom into a place of tragedy, and not so much about gun control. The singers in this video are saying as the Pharisees said, “We have no king but Ceaser.” When the Pharisees said this, they were saying that they would rather have an earthly kingdom than a heavenly one (more about this later) R and I are both registered gun owners and understand that guns cannot be blamed for killing anymore than pencils for poor spelling.
Now about the verses you quoted:
First I'm not sure by what you mean when you say God was not forgiving of evil. God certainly dealt with our evil behavior by dying our death instead of killing us Col 1:21,21 Yes God will deal out justice for evil as a whole later on but his plan right now is the sacrifice of Jesus in an era of grace see vs 20. It looks like Lk 4: 18, 19. This time period is God's year of Jubilee for humans. In many international airports there is an amnesty box and a person can give up whatever contraband they carry and pass though without the law coming down on them, but if they pass though still carrying something illegal justice must act. This illustration breaks down at points, but so do all of them.
R and I do not agree with folks that say Jesus is a pacifist, that is taking someone else's idea and pressing it onto Jesus. Jesus is totally different and uncategorizable, which is what I think of when I think of the word Holy. What kind of a person leaves the glory of Heaven to come down here to this wrecked place to touch lepers? Without getting into a discussion on the existence of “human rights” I believe that self defense is the most basic of all human rights if there are such things, and yet Jesus gave up self defense for our sakes. And he left us an example of unjust suffering for us to follow 1 Pet 1:21, 22/Phil 2. No I do not believe Jesus means for us to leave the weak undefended. I believe it is my duty before God to protect my family and others who may not be able to defend themselves. As far as self defense is concerned I expect to be lead by the Spirit when it might be time for me to drop my fists and take a beating and entrust myself to Him who judges justly.
When Peter cut of Malchus's ear he got rebuked and told "those who live by the sword die by the sword." Which does make me wonder why Jesus didn't rebuke them for carrying swords in the first place given that there were plenty of Messiahs before Jesus trying to lead a rebellion against Rome. Jesus wanted to make it perfectly clear that this is not what He and his followers were up to. Only 2 swords, that'll be enough.
In Lk 22 Jesus did not call us to be armed and prepared. I will ask what is the difference between Lk 22 and MT 10, where Jesus sends out the twelve? Jesus is instructing his disciples not to carry extra clothes and money and to accept what folks give them because the worker deserves his wages. These instructions seem to be meant to carry over into our time (yet who of us does this), as in, we should be doing the same. Note vs 17-23. Now, in Lk 22 Jesus is giving specific instructions for his disciples for a specific moment in time. The Shepard is about to be struck and the sheep are about to be scattered. A couple of swords might be handy in this darkest of all nights for individual safety. Two swords certainly can't lead a rebellion against Rome though. Following that reasoning, Jesus also told his disciples at one point to go get a donkey, since I don't have one, I am in violation of the Master's command.
LOVE does win
J
"This video/prayer vigil was about trying to bring God's kingdom into a place of tragedy, and not so much about gun control."
I do not see that
At best I see a guy muddying a tragedy by implicating a gun shop in an event they had nothing to do with by sending them the insulting "Code of Conduct."
I read his article and in it he sounds like a self righteous idiot.
I think I should have made the context of my comments clearer
I am responding to his article:
http://blog.sojo.net/2010/02/26/beauty-and-ugliness-in-a-shootings-aftermath/
and the initial perception I had of the video compared to what I thought of events after reading up a bit.
Perhaps that is what the "God bless America" singers are saying, but I got the impression that they were mostly singing to the goofy hat dude, "Screw you." Do not interpret that as me supporting what they are doing (it is at BEST tacky). I just don't have a lot of sympathy for a man who sees a hornets nest, whacks it with a stick and then gets stung.
"Without getting into a discussion on the existence of “human rights” I believe that self defense is the most basic of all human rights if there are such things, and yet Jesus gave up self defense for our sakes."
That's interesting. I have been thinking about the idea of "Rights" for a while now and am far from certain that rights actually exist. To me it is more like a word that means we all agree not to interfere with each others ability to exercise the "rights" but I digress
God forgives sin not Evil.
Repentance is a part of forgiveness and there is no repentance in evil. That is not a perfect statement but do you see the idea I'm trying to communicate?
From the Article:
"When we look at Jesus’ cross we see what love looks like when it stares evil in the face. It is non-violent, it is forgiving, it is steady and courageous."
That is crap. It's a fluffy pile of pious feeling, meaningless crap.
I don't claim to be the one who knows what Jesus was like but that statement bears no resemblance to him. He rebuked evil, he threw out the money changers, he moved through the crowd. He was a man's man. He basically went onto a job site and said to the construction workers, "Follow me and I'll make you builders of men."
"Jesus is totally different and uncategorizable,"
Exactly.
"and yet Jesus gave up self defense for our sakes."
A "right" means you get to choose whether you exercise it.
I agree with what you say about Jesus there but i don't see how it ties in.
"them for carrying swords in the first place given that there were plenty of Messiahs before Jesus trying to lead a rebellion against Rome. Jesus wanted to make it perfectly clear that this is not what He and his followers were up to. Only 2 swords, that'll be enough."
I'm right there with you. I am not advocating or even discussing the armed overthrow of a government.
"I will ask what is the difference between Lk 22 and MT 10, where Jesus sends out the twelve?"
The place on the timeline. They are sent out first without anything(while Jesus is there in the flesh) and then are told to get equipped for the time when Jesus leaves. To me I kind of get the idea that the first one was a lesson and the second one is for real life. A poor articulation but I think you get what I'm saying and I'm not going to pretend that I have easily reconciled apparent contradictions in scripture.
Sounds to me like the time you describe when Jesus tells the disciples to get a sword if they don't have one is very similar to the time we live in now and what you say seems to support rather than undermine what I was saying.
"Following that reasoning, Jesus also told his disciples at one point to go get a donkey, since I don't have one, I am in violation of the Master's command."
Don't be silly dude. That is God's commandment that we all have, or have access to, a pickup truck!
Seriously though I think it is pretty clear from what is written (and especially considering the context that you give) that Jesus is telling us to be prepared for adversity.
I would like to know how common swords were and how they were generally employed then.
K
P.S. You're going to make a great farmer! Congrats!
Do you mean Evil as a concept, cause I am having a hard time believing evil as a concept alone, since it works itself out in action. Action done by persons. Persons, who get forgiven. And forgiving people is not the same thing as giving a free pass to the evil things we do. That is not how God revealed his Name to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Jesus identified Satan as “the evil one” in his prayer. Jesus appeared “to destroy the devil's work.” He has bound up the strong man and now is in the process of plundering his whole house. “He disarmed the powers and authorities, making a public specticle of THEM (emphasis mine) triumping over them by the cross.” (I emphasize “them” because, hanging you naked on a cross, usually along a main thoroughfair dying, is the way Romans made a public spectacle of you, if you crossed them. Especially if they hang a sign over your head written in all three main languages so folks who pass by understand clearly this is what happens when you mess with Rome.) Jesus, “who, destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the good news.” All of this is pretty violent language to me. All this, while interceding for the Roman soldiers crucifying him. So I agree, Jesus was not non-violent to evil. Shane's greater context, to me, concerning how we are to responed to evil people, seems to jive quite well with what I read in the New Testament, especially Romans 12. In my heart I am longing to see evil people get what they deserve. Let me put it this way, if someone wrongs me, I don't need to take vengence, because I have hired out (so to speak) someone else to do it for me. Someone who is very good at it. Someone who knows exactly what He is doing. However I would much rather see folks get saved. Something like this might be going on in Ananias's prayer in Acts 9. After Ananias complains about this Saul guy, what a horrible guy he is, persecuting God's people, God says, “I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” I also have to take the parable of the unmerciful servant seriously. When Paul gets slaped in the mouth he responds with a warning of God's justice and probably also out of righteous anger, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" Only a moment later to apologize.
There are two books that I would like to get my hands on. “A Just Forgiveness” and “Evil and the Justice of God”. The latter is by N.T. Wright, who is totally awesome. What I am trying to say, is that we are living in a timeThere are two books that I would like to get my hands on. “A Just Forgiveness” and “Evil and the Justice of God”. The latter is by N.T. Wright, who is totally awesome. What I am trying to say, is that we are living in a time period of grace for now and soon, very soon, Jesus will come back, and he will kick ass and take names. He will set things to rights once and for all. That Jesus is coming soon AS JUDGE cannot be excluded from the good news, it is part and parcle to it. As Paul said in Athens, “For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." Johny Cash's song “When the man comes around” comes to mind. Execpt for one thing “the'll be a golden ladder reaching down.” There already IS a golden ladder reaching down. The cross is the ultimate ladder to God.
I think this event is well beyond gun rights. I agree that the kingdom of God is not brought about by simply making some new rules, but I think praying like Jesus taught us to pray is good place to start. All I can say about the kingdom of God is better said in “The Gospel of the Kingdom” by George Eldon Ladd. THIS BOOK has been more foundational to my thinking than any book I've read. It is the best book I've read in the past 10 or 15 years. Catch it on google books it's only about 140 pages. I dig your “I'll make you builders of men” comment. We need to be careful how we talk about Jesus so folks don't get the idea that He is a pansy or a push over, lest there be no impact when the Righteous Judge of all the earth has mercy on them. He will come back soon, on a white steed, with KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS written on his thigh.
You can have a listen to N.T Wright here http://www.socratesinsf.com/resources/multimedia/details/?id=24274
I am glad you think we will make good farmers, we are over the moon about it. “Where our hearts truly lie is in peace and quiet, and good tilled earth.”
J
"He will come back soon, on a white steed, with KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS written on his thigh."
that and "personal savior"
When I have heard people advocate pacifism they have always focused on the internal process of desiring some form of retribution. They have a point but they think that they have addressed everything. They haven't.
We don't use violence on someone threatening us because we are angry. We use violence to make it stop.
We do not forgive evil. We may forgive someone FOR the evil he has done but whenever we see ever we need to act immediately to neutralize it.
From the Article:
"The next week we held a prayer vigil at the local gun shop, praying for an end to violence … and specifically asking and praying that the owner of “The Shooter Shop” would agree to a voluntary “Code of Conduct” drafted by Mayors from all over the country who agree that these ten simple steps would prevent deaths like Papito’s. So on February 13, we walked in silence with friends and neighbors from the candle memorial where Papito died three blocks to The Shooter Shop down the street. And we carried candles. It was there that I remembered the candles gentle warmth as it faced the coldness of a winter storm."
That is soggy horse pucky.
We can and should talk about the church choosing "Ceasar" over Christ but this is not an example of it. The more I read Mr' Claiborne's article the more I think he is nothing more than a huge douche-bag.
He is so damn sure he has the moral high ground that he is not looking at where his thinking has taken him and he earned every single unpleasant thing that took place because of it.
No, it is not really about gun control. It is about about a first class ass-hat pissing in the face of a bunch of people and then claiming he is suffering for the cross because of it.
Dinner awaits!
K
It took me four hours to construct this response. Stop shooting from the hip and answer better.You can't just keep insulting Shane, you can disagree, fine, but just insulting him is starting to irritate me. I have read some of his books, he's a good guy. I gota get up at 0400 so I'll pick this up tomorrow.
I read your response, carefully.
Mr. Claiborne may be trying to do good things. Trying. That is the most that I will give him.
If he wants to enter the public sphere then he needs to do his due diligence and research what it is that he is doing. I am assuming that he has not done the research he should because then he is careless. If he did do his research then he is cold unscrupulous bastard who is making completely unwarranted political hay from a terrible tragedy.
So, since I am assuming he did not do adequate research let me tell you what he should have figured out.
Let's start with the code:
(I'll tackle them one at a time)
The 10 points of the Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership are:
1. Videotaping the Point of Sale for All Firearms Transactions. Participating retailers will videotape the point-of-sale of all firearms transactions and maintain videos for 6 months to deter illegal purchases and monitor employees.
That is a large financial commitment. If the person is giving false information the video will do little good to a person using the footage. The surveillance video I've used was not good enough for a jury and only barely good enough for us to ID the person. (We happened to see the footage and then detain the guy in the footage on the same day but did not know that the guy was who we had seen on the tape. It was only when looking at his mug shot where he was wearing the same Adidas shirt as he was when he robbed the Fred Meyer that we realized he was the same guy. And check this out. When we showed the girl who was behind the counter his picture she still didn't pick him out so all that knowledge was worthless)
This leads me to the fact that law enforcement would rarely make use of this "resource" if ever.
So this is asking gun shops, most of which are small operations, to invest heavily in a thing that would do little to nothing to prevent illegal gun purchases (remember this is a point of sale video camera).
A shop may choose to install video surveillance for its own benefit but that is up to the business and would be about reducing and prosecuting theft.
2. Computerized Prime Gun Trace Log and Alert System. Maors Against Illegal Guns will develop a computerized system that participating retailers will implement over time to log crime gun traces relating to the retailer. Once the program is in place, if a customer who has a prior trace at that retailer attempts to purchase a firearm, the sale will be electronically flagged. The retailer would have discretion to proceed with the sale or stop the sale.
This is where they lost me and what makes this whole thing (his prayer vigil thing) a farce.
Mayors (not "Maors" as it is printed on the Heeding God's Call website) Against Illegal Guns is a dishonest hardcore anti-gun organization more interested in interfering with the rights of law abiding citizens than addressing the illegal use of guns. The simple fact of MAIG's presence in this means that the gun shop will absolutely refuse to have anything to do with The Code. Even if it was a good idea, which it isn't, they would not and should not sign it because it might give MAIG an undeserved veneer of legitimacy. This simple, easily discoverable information is why I call Mr. Claiborne a douche-bag ass-hat. Now lets look at what #2 is saying.
The "Prime" Gun Trace Log is not very clearly outlined but the first thing is that MAIG "will develop" it. WILL develop. It doesn't exist yet. So the gun shop does not know what it is they are signing on to. Even if I thought what was outlined seemed like a good idea I would not sign it until I actually knew what would emerge.
After reading #2 a few times I'm less and less sure of what it is actually proposing but two things seem clear. First, that MAIG would likely have my information if I purchased a gun (an unacceptable circumstance). Second, that we are to believe that these "crime guns" are coming from illegally purchased guns when the fact is they are almost always stolen.
3. Purchaser Declaration. For sales flagged by the trace alert system, participating retailers will ask purchasers to fill out a declaration indicating that they meet the legal requirement to purchase the firearm.
WTF? If someone is set on illegally purchasing a gun, filling out a "declaration" will do nothing to dissuade him. Additionally It seems to me that someone could get flagged (if I understand what they are proposing) even if they ARE totally legal. So then what?
It is a completely pointless suggestion.
4. Deterring Fake IDs. Participating retailers will only accept valid federal- or state-issued picture IDs as primary identification. Retailers will utilize additional ID checking mechanisms.
???? An FFL is licensed through the ATF. The ATF does NOT screw around. Unless you want to run afoul of the ATF and GO TO PRISON, you take checking valid government IDs very seriously. Only an idiot would not check ID thoroughly.
"Retailers will utilize additional ID checking mechanisms."
In addition to what?
This ranks with #2.
5. Consistent Visible Signage. Participating retailers will post signage created by the Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership to alert customers of their legal responsibilities at the point-of-sale.
???? What is that going to do? This is one of those, "It can't hurt can it?" statements that is useless and unnecessary.
6. Employee Background Checks. Participating retailers will conduct criminal background checks for all employees selling or handling firearms.
This is pretty weak. It does not even imply that action should be taken if an employee has a criminal background. Guess what? If someone is legal to work somewhere, they are legal to work there. If they are not, then they are not, period.
7. Employee Responsibility Training. Participating retailers will participate in an employee responsibility training program focused on deterring illegal purchasers. The Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership will create an online training system based on Wal-Mart´s training program.
? I don't know what this is. I'm not sure why The Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership is supposed to be the trusted party to get this done (They are a part of MAIG) but hey, why not? Let's say this is a good idea that isn't being done already. (though for all I know it is)
8. Inventory Checking. Participating retailers will conduct daily and quarterly audits. Guidelines will be based on Wal-Mart´s existing audit procedures.
I don't know why Wal-Mart is supposed to be the gold standard but this sounds like we are supposed to think that gun shops are letting folks steal guns from them willy-nilly. I'm betting that a gun shop is already something like this. And what about Bear, the guy you got your 20ga from? Is he supposed to do daily inventory checks? (I'm not saying you're for any of this I'm just showing how MAIG's blanket approach is just silly.)
9. No Sales Without Background Check Results. Participating retailers would prohibit sales based on "default proceeds," which are permitted by law when background check has not returned a result within 3 days.
I'll quote a sanitized version of the reply I got from a significant figure in the gun industry who works at a gunshop.
"Who the f*** do these Liberal Assholes think they are? Everything on that list is pretty much already what every FFL does.
We never transfer a gun without that background check result. To do so is to invite the ATF up in your ass.
These morons are a waste of time."
Moving on.
10. Securing Firearms. Participating retailers will maintain firearms kept in customer accessible areas in locked cases or locked racks.
See above.
I figure at this point you're thinking that this is not what you were writing about. I put this here so you see how I come to what I say.
Now, let's move on to Mr.Claiborne's article "Beauty and Ugliness in a Shooting’s Aftermath"
"Something sort of mystical and magical happened after a 19-year-old kid named Papito was killed on our block a few weeks ago. As our neighborhood ached and grieved and cried with his family, we began to create a memorial for Papito where he died – a familiar ritual in the inner city. Those who knew and loved him brought photos and flowers. Kids on our block brought stuffed animals or whatever they had and laid them on the sidewalk memorial. And everyone brought candles. But here’s where the magic happened. It was the next day that the east coast was to be hammered with one of the worst snowstorms since we’ve kept records. As the snow showered down, I thought the little candles, sheltered only beneath a little shanty of soggy cardboard, would not stand a chance in the blizzard. But on they burned. Hour after hour, even through the night they burned. And the warmth of the fire melted down the snow as it fell. Flake by flake melted from the warmth of the fire. The next morning I went out to find the candles still burning, on a little patch of wet sidewalk like an oasis of warmth glowing in the middle of 2 feet of snow encroaching on all sides."
Ok, not my style. I think he's being kind of smarmy and sentimental about a brutal tragedy. As if this "mystical" picture he is painting somehow makes Papito's death make sense but hey, if that's what he wants to do I have no problem letting him smarm away.
"The next week we held a prayer vigil at the local gun shop, praying for an end to violence …" (his ellipsis)
Excuse me, what? What does that have to do with ANYTHING he wrote previously? With the information given, in what way could that gun shop POSSIBLY be considered even remotely culpable for Papito's tragic death? This part of the sentence alone is more than adequate to explain the events that took place but it get's better.
(his ellipsis, it's the same one)"… and specifically asking and praying that the owner of “The Shooter Shop” would agree to a voluntary “Code of Conduct” drafted by Mayors from all over the country who agree that these ten simple steps would prevent deaths like Papito’s."
Wow. Mr. Claiborne is completely off the reservation now. I'm going to rewrite that but with what i believe is a more accurate meaning.
(Starting with my ellipsis) ". . .and specifically asking and praying that the unconnected, unrelated, owner of "The Shooter Shop" who has not been shown to have broken the law or even common sense and good faith in his business dealings would agree to a voluntary "Code of Conduct" (which implies that he is being irresponsible so he needs to get with our program) drafted by MAIG, a misleading and clearly anti-gun group (with an unremarkable number of mayors as members) and as such also working against this man's livelihood, who agree these ten redundant, offensive, and unnecessary steps would prevent people from stealing guns from people's homes and then using them to commit brutal and senseless acts of violence that so often result in deaths like Papito's"
Moving on
"So on February 13, we walked in silence"
because that shows we're really serious and sincere
"with friends and neighbors from the candle memorial where Papito died three blocks to The Shooter Shop down the street."
Ahhh. . .So it is guilt by location. The poor folks at The Shooter Shop should have chosen a different location
"And we carried candles."
because candles are spiritual
"It was there that I remembered the candles gentle warmth as it faced the coldness of a winter storm."
Church Lady: "Well isn't that special."
All of this is trying to obfuscate the fact that this whole undertaking is completely offensive. It demeans Papito's death and distracts from the problems that caused it, it smears The Shooter Shop for simply being close, and it offends me because he is doing it all in the name of Christ. And considering how unrelated The Shooter Shop is to what happened to Papito I believe it may even border on blasphemy. He is doing it in the name of God.
Tell me how Mr. Claiborne has not created an "us" and "them?"
"As we gathered with dozens of other Christians from around Philadelphia to pray for peace, we were met by a counter-demonstration that had been organized by gun-rights groups."
Are you suprised?
"They shouted some of the meanest things I have ever heard."
You beat the hornet nest. And you weren't mean, you were borderline libelous. The Shooter Shop has nothing to do with the events previously described and you have blamed them for the death of Papito. You have basically said that the owner of The Shooter Shop killed him. Remember, you wrote, "these ten simple steps would prevent deaths like Papito’s."
"I didn’t mind them calling me a “scumbag”, and I even concede on the “you need a shower” comment"
That is awfully big of you.
"but then the insults shot like bullets – racial, economic, angry insults … some of them to kids from our block, some of them whispered just loud enough to hear, such as, 'stupid immigrant.'"
You stirred up the hornets and then dragged these other people into it.
I would prefer these percieved representatives of my "side" of the political argument here were as classy as I'd like to think I am but they're not. They are angry and have probably thought this through about as well as you have. The only difference is that you have wronged them. Before their arrival what had they ever done to you? Are they good examples of what Christ exhorts us to be? No they are not but frankly, in this situation neither are you and you deserve every last insult they are firing.
"While I do not believe the folks we met reflect the character or views of most gun owners or even NRA members (heck, I’ve shot some squirrels for dinner back in Tennessee) … the ugly counter-protest was organized by folks who started off by saying things like this:
Be advised that Shooter’s Shop is located in a dicey neighborhood. You should have no problem in daylight, and I doubt the local neighborhood folks are going to mess with a bunch of NRA members, but carry your gun with you. Do not leave it unattended in a vehicle if you go where someone could break into your car and steal it!
–from the Web site, “Snowflakes in Hell” (which, incidentally, may flaw with my candle metaphor!)"
No, YOU instigated the ugly counter protest and the advice in what was quoted is sound. Unless you have a good gun safe that is well attached to your car you should bring your gun with you. After all, we don't want folks using more stolen guns to commit more crimes.
"So the fact that they are not from the neighborhood may explain some of the behavior we saw and their inability to lament the bloodshed we see on these streets from guns sold to straw buyers at gun shops like the Shooter Shop (not many folks are buying hunting rifles from a gun shop in Kensington … we don’t have many deer here)."
Again, you don't get to go there. Considering the provocation we cannot accurately judge that group's ability to mourn the death of Papito. They aren't there because of Papito, they're there for you. Again, you made this scene.
"There is no doubt that my grandmother was right when she used to say, “God doesn’t like ugly.” And the Scriptures speak clearly: We are not fighting against people but against principalities and powers – ugly, filthy, sick principalities and powers."
So your grandmother says, "God doesn't like ugly" and you have called the NRA folks the "ugly counter-protest" therefore you are saying that God does not like the counter protest (according to your grandmother)
Well the shoe fits on the other foot as far as I can tell (according to your grandmother).
"When we look at Jesus’ cross we see what love looks like when it stares evil in the face. It is non-violent, it is forgiving, it is steady and courageous."
I have already spoken to this and I stand by it (but am completely willing to discuss it further).
"It is this courageous love that exposes evil by making it so uncomfortable that it has to be dealt with."
That is just a crap sentence. You do not expose evil by making it uncomfortable, you make people uncomfortable by exposing and confronting them with evil. That is just a gooey, mamby-pamby sentence meaning nothing.
"Colossians is correct when it says that as Jesus rose from the dead he made a spectacle of the cross. As he listened to insults, had people spit in his face, curse him, and kill him he knew full well that he was exposing the ugliness … and in the end, love wins over hatred."
So you see yourself as Jesus in all this. Wow. So tell me Mr. Claiborne where is it that I am supposed to see your love in all this? All I see is sentimentality inspiring ignorant action.
"When we came back to the house we got a chance to unpack things with some of the teenagers from the block who were at the vigil. They shared about how powerful it was to see us return meanness with kindness. We remembered how Martin Luther King said to those who were so mean to him: “To our most bitter opponents we say: ‘Throw us in jail and we will still love you. Bomb our houses and we will still love you. Beat us and leave us half dead, and we will still love you … but be ye assured that we will wear you down with our love.” As the early Christian martyrs said: “Grace dulls even the sharpest sword.”"
Again, wow. I see kindness nowhere, nor do I see DR. Martin Luther King JR (nor his dad) in this anywhere. You didn't return the insults you stirred up. Man, that's real big of you.
"We will continue to hold vigil and to pray for a conversion of heart from the gun shop owner."
Conversion from what to what?
"In fact, the steady witness is growing … more than 100 pastors and church leaders have drafted letters (like this one) to the gun shop owner urging him to seize this opportunity to lead with integrity and show irresponsible gun shop owners a better way. "
You just keep stirring the pot don't you? Who is the owner to lead the way? He's just a guy trying to make a living who has been presented a nonsensical piece of paper. I don't see why these irresponsible gun shop owners should be influenced by anything you, the owner, or anyone else outside of the ATF does or says. But since this group of pastors (over 100!) are on your side, that's right you are totally calling sides, then God must certainly be with you.
"Please light your candle and send your letter to Mr. Haney. When he signs the Code of Conduct we will alert the press and have a huge celebration outside The Shooter Shop (I might even buy a new bb-gun from him)."
Nice carrot. Sign The Code and we will get you free advertising and publicity and buy stuff from you.
"This morning I woke up and saw the snow falling again, and the candles still burning (they’ve been burning for almost three weeks now) … they are still melting the snow. As I thought about the vigil last week, I had once thought we were sheep among wolves … but now I’m thinking we were just candles in the middle of a blizzard. And snow melts, but the light keeps glowing. We are to be the light, to be the salt … both of which can melt the toughest ice or the coldest heart."
Yeah, whatever.
So that is where I am on this. It is not about gun rights. It is about some bone head making trouble and then claiming a crown in heaven for it.
Like I said before there is definitely an issue with, as you put it, Christians choosing an earthly king over a heavenly one. I don't see that playing out here. I see a bone head liberal pissing off a bunch of bone head conservatives and both parties gathering at the same place to be bone heads together. Mr. Claiborne draws my ire particularly though because in his whole article he is claiming to act in the love of Christ and I can't see one example of it. Instead he seems to be causing factions within the faith.
A quickie regarding evil.
Justice, final and ultimate justice, is God's Job. I doubt that violence is often a source of justice. However, when it comes to stopping injustice it can be just the tool you need and it is OUR job to stop injustice not God's.
Well, time for bed. I've got a few hours in this one too so I hope you made it to the end.
While I don't agree that I was shooting from the hip I'm glad you felt free to call it. Please do. Honest friendship is uncommon.
K
An article:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/84865317.html
More video:
http://s807.photobucket.com/albums/yy360/cloveless/?action=view¤t=MOV02670.flv
K
Sorry for the shoot from the hip comment, that was unfair. Thank you for clarifying stuff and spending your time to do so. I think you have some valid points about the code of conduct. I still think what Shane is doing in Philly is good. You certaily may disagree with me at this point.
I suggest a way forward. I propose a discussion on the Kingdom of God, what it means to pursue it and participate in it. What does the New Creation look like? I would like to do this all by itself, without comming back to Shane.
Yup, I disagree. I think Mr. Claiborne is at best misguided.
No further discussion of Mr. Claiborne sounds delightful!
I just want it on the record that everything I've written I would say to his face though I'd give him a chance to give clarifying context to his actions and see it I still thought the same of him before speaking.
Sure, the Kingdom of God as you said. This brings up the question of where to have the discussion. We could do it via email though we may want others to be able to chime in.
What about sharing a blog? We could use Kumtoi if you like.
Thoughts?
K
Yes, a sharing blog sounds wonderful.Thanks for letting everyone use yours.
Send me an email address (via email) and I'll add you as an author to this one. I have no problem with mamasong being the author account but whatever works for you.
K
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